Where does a fire go, Vaccha?

A translation from Pali to English of the Aggi Vacchagotta, or Fire, Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya.

Thus have I heard.

At one time the Buddha was dwelling at Jetavana, the park of Anathapindika.

At that time the wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Buddha, greeted him, exchanged a few words, and sat down to one side. Thus seated he asked:

What say you Gotama, do you hold that the world eternal, this alone is true, all else is ignorance.
Is this your viewpoint Gotama?
This is not my view Vaccha, that the world is eternal.
But then do you hold that the world is not eternal?
This is not my view Vaccha, that the world is not eternal.

So do you state that the universe is infinite?
This is not my view Vaccha, that universe is infinite.
But then do you state that the universe is limited?
This is not my view Vaccha, that the universe is limited.

But now do you believe that the soul is identical with the body?
This is not my view Vaccha, that the soul is identical with the body.

Or that the soul is one thing and the body another?
That is not my view Vaccha, that the soul is on thing and the body another.

So do you propose that one gone beyond arises after the breaking up of the body?
This is not my view Vaccha, that one gone beyond arises after the breaking up of the body.

Or do you propose that one gone beyond doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body?
This is not my view Vaccha, that one gone beyond doesn't arise of the breaking up of the body.

But do you propose that one gone beyond both arises and doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body?
This is not my view Vaccha, that one gone beyond both arises and doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body.

Or do you propose that one gone beyond neither arises nor doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body?
This is not my view Vaccha, that one gone beyond neither arises nor doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body.

But when Gotama is asked about the world, about the universe, about the soul, about the breaking up of the body, he replies 'this is not my view Vaccha, that is not my view Vaccha ...'
What does Gotama have to fear in contemplating these questions? Why doesn't he go into them?

These questions that you ask Vaccha,
they lead to a tangle of views, a dense dark jungle of views,
they are difficult to shine a light upon,
they make for endless discussion and dispute,
they make for agitation and worry,
they are a heavy burden, replete with suffering and discord,
they do not lead to tranquility, to harmony, to detachment, to relinquishment,
they do not lead to clarity, to knowledge, to wisdom.
This is the fear that I have Vaccha, in contemplating these questions,
and this is why I do not go into them.

So are there are any views for you, Gotama?

Views are relinquished by one who has gone beyond Vaccha, for it is seen as it really is;
this is the body, this is it's origin, this it's cessation,
these are feelings, this is their origin, this their cessation,
these are memories, this is their origin, this their cessation,
this is the will, this is it's origin, this it's cessation,
this are experiences, this is their origin, this their cessation.

I say one who has gone beyond has completely relinquished and abandoned
all views and theories, all agitation and worry, all fluctuation of opinion,
all 'this is my view', all 'this is my opinion', all egotism,
for he is passionless, selfless, detached, liberated, calm.

But one with a mind thus liberated Gotama, does he arise after the breaking up of the body?
Of one such as that Vaccha, one can not say that he arises after the breaking up of the body.

So one with a mind thus liberated, does he not arise after the breaking up of the body?
Of one such as that Vaccha, one can not say that he does not arise after breaking up of the body.

But does he both arise and not arise?
Of one such as that Vaccha, one can not say that he does and he doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body.

Or does he neither arise not not arise?
Of one such as that Vaccha, one can not say that he neither does nor doesn't arise after the breaking up of the body.

But always when I ask Gotama about one with a mind thus liberated,
does he arise after the breaking up of the body, does he not, does he both, does he neither,
each time you answer the same Gotama,
of one such as that one can not say this, of one such as this one can not say that ....
I don't understand Gotama, I am bewildered Gotama,
whatever was clarity and satisfaction that I had experienced in our earlier conversation,
all of that has now has completely gone, completely vanished.

Of course you do not understand Vaccha, of course you are bewildered Vaccha,
profound is this dharma Vaccha, difficult to see, difficult to discern,
tranquil, mysterious, beyond mere rational understanding,
to be understood intuitively and only by the wise.
For you of course it is hard to understand,
you who state other views, you who hold other beliefs,
with other roots, with other traditions, with another conduct.

Now I will inquire of you in turn Vaccha, answer just as you see fit, in any way you wish.
So what say you Vaccha, if a fire was burning before you, would you know it?

Indeed I would, Gotama.

And if someone were to ask you, 'on account of what does this fire burn',
how would you reply Vaccha, answer just as you see fit, in any way you wish.

I would say that this fire burns on account of sticks and grass, Gotama.

And if this fire burning before you was to be extinguished Vaccha, would you know it?

Indeed I would, Gotama.

And if you were now asked which direction has it gone Vaccha, east or west, south or north?
How would you reply Vaccha, answer just as you see fit, in any way you wish.

Which direction? One can not say Gotama, the fire burnt because of sticks and grass,
and with the end of them it too is extinguished.

So to for the breaking up of the body of one gone beyond,
when the body is abandoned, cut at the root, like a tree completely uprooted,
it does not come into existence again in the future;
one gone beyond of is entirely freed from the compulsion of embodied life,
just like a vast and mighty ocean, he is profound, immeasurable, of a nature difficult to penetrate;
that he is reborn one can not say, that he is not reborn one can not say,
that he is both one can not say, that he is neither one can not say.
So to for feelings, memories, the will and experiences of one gone beyond,
when the body is abandoned, cut at the root, like a tree completely uprooted,
they too do not come into existence again in the future,
one gone beyond is entirely freed from their compulsion;
just like a vast and mighty ocean, he is profound, immeasurable, of a nature difficult to penetrate,
that he is reborn one can not say, that he is not reborn one can not say,
that he is both one can not say, that he is neither one can not say.

On hearing these words of the Buddha, Vacchagotta said;
wonderful indeed Lord, wonderful indeed,
just as if there was a great leafy tree Gotama, not far from a village or small town,
which had it's leaves and branches stripped off,
it's bark and shoots stripped off, it's wood stripped down, leaving just a thin arrow standing,
so it is with the dharma you have made known Gotama,
from a great leafy tangle of views just the thin core you have left standing.

Just as if what was knocked over had been set upright again,
just as if what was hidden has been uncovered,
just as if the lost have been shown the path again,
or in darkness a lamp has been held so that they could see,
abundantly, dear Gotama, the dhamma has been made visible to me.

Thus worthy Gotama I go for refuge to you, your dhamma and the sangha,
as a faithful devotee from this day onwards as long as life lasts.

Translation from Pali by Suvannavira.

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Dernière mise à jour:
04 avril, 2007.